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Here are the units involved:
Lone Wolf w/Thunderhammer and Stormshield
5 Thunderwolf Cavalry w/1 Thunderhammer
Vs.
6 Purifiers
Knight of the Flame w/MC Demonhammer
Xenos Inquisitor w/Rad Grenades
The Space Wolves charged my Purifiers. The Lone Wolf and a Halberd get locked up together and everyone else on the Thunderwolves. To start off the combat I can’t cast any psychic powers because I need to save it for the Force Weapons. The Rad grenades lower his Toughness to 4 (this was a big argument because he did not think that one IC’s grenades can work on his whole squad but in the rules it clearly states that it affects the unit). On to the combat; both of my Halberds whiff to start the combat at I6. Then the scrum begins. He does all of his attacks and I can’t make a save and he kills all 6 of my Purifiers. I strike back and do 4 wounds. Because he has 4 un-upgraded Thunderwolves he places the wounds on them and removes 2 models so I can’t force weapon them. This does not sound right and I start looking through the rules for wound allocation. After spending a reasonable amount of time I let it go. (This is my MO for tournament play. If I can’t find the rule in short amount of time I move on). Then my Demonhammer swings I do two more wounds and he takes another model off. In the next round he kills my Inq and my Knight of the Flame and those 2 Thunderwolves then go and kill all of my vehicles giving him the win after tabling me. That loss cost me the win and a swing of about $40 in store credit.
I know that the way he allocated the wounds in this manner was incorrect because then force weapons would be useless because you can never kill units of multi-wounded creatures. It was not until that night that I found the correct rule about units with multi-wounds against weapons that cause instant death. The rule is that if you have a weapons that inflicts instant death you have to apply each wound to each unwounded model and that model is removed.
So if the rules would have been played correctly then I would have killed those 5 Thunder Wolves and then had a good shot at killing the Lone Wolf. Oh well, each game you learn something new and will play the rule correctly in the future.
Oh well, I need to brush up on my rules. This is the same store where I played a Tau player and after shooting shield drones he told me that they were wargear and that they did not count for leadership checks, and I know that they did. I did not know where to find that rule and it was right in the Tau codex under drones.
I do not have either of these codexes so cannot possibly know their rules very well.
ReplyDeleteSo who in this combat is an IC?
Is your force weapon different from normal force weapon?
Xenos Inquisitor w/Rad Grenades is an IC and joined to the Purifier unit.
ReplyDeleteThe Purifier force weapons are no different from normal force weapons other than the unit takes the psychic test to activate all of the units force weapons.
I believe you are incorrect on your rules this time.
ReplyDeletePg. 50 of the BRB says that Force Weapon roll to hit and to wound as normal. THEN - take your psychic test against any one opponent that suffered and unsaved wound.
As a Force Weapon does not inflict instant death automatically, only upon the resolution of that initiative orders unsaved wounds, your opponent allocated his wound properly.
pg. 26 of the BRB says that IF some of those wounds inflict instant death then they have to remove unwounded models for each wound.
The problem is that your I6 Halberds missed. If you I6 Halberds had hit your opponent, then he would have had to allocate one wound per model.
pg. 54 of Codex: GK in the box text has this spelled out: If a unit is striking at different initiatives you take the force weapon test immediately after the first unsaved wounds.
In other words, if you had hit him once with an I6 halberd, you would have taken the test. If you pass it, your I6 attack would have instant killed his model and from that point on your force weapons would have been activated and instant death weapons.
Until then, they are just power weapons. Which is why having the I6 Halberds is so important in Grey Knight Squads; not only do you get to hit first, but you can then activate your force weapons.
@Magilla Gurilla,
ReplyDeleteYou are not quite correct. Wounds are allocated to "a group of identical models". The information given was that all four TWC are the same.
After save (in the case none) are taken Force weapons are activated. If succesful each unsaved wound gains Instand Death so all four TWC would die.
That is not true a force weapon can only convert 1 unsaved wound to instant death. See the quote where it says 1. All those wounds came from the same model correct so at most one of them can be converted to instant death. So you would have had 1 ID, 3 normal wounds killing 2 guys and wound on another. Next step would have added 2 more wounds which assuming they are not ID would have killed one more guy leaving with 3 dead wolves and a guy with a wound so nets you one wound.
ReplyDeleteUnless your rules say that all the wounds become instant death you have to keep track of each individuals force weapon wounds. It is a real mess with some units especially target units that are all different and some have inv saves without being ICs. I think it would go like this: Roll every force weapon equiped model seperately for hits and wounds then allocate wounds by group to account for all wounds at INT step but do not apply them yet next inv saves then decide what wound from each force weapon you are going to try to become instant death roll power check then convert that wound for each force weapon now actually apply the wounds to their assigned groups removing 1 model for each instant death then the remaining wounds. This is a rules cluster screw since the order is not that well defined. If he had put 1 wound on the thunderhammer wolf I am not sure if you could have sniped him by saying that is the ID before you roll. Problem is that force weapons say unsaved but you cannot find out what is unsaved until after allocation of wounds which would then allow you to pick the allocated unsaved wound to try to convert it ID.
Brotherhood of Psykers makes GK force weapons different from normal force weapons.
ReplyDeleteP. 54
"If the test is passed, then all wounds caused by the unit's Nemesis force weapons that phase inflict instant Death"
Note that is says WOUNDS and not UN-SAVED wounds.
Each model is allocated a wound that deals instant death. Then if the wound is Unsaved the model dies.
Non-brotherhood Force weapons work as normal, wound are allocated and then suffered. THEN you test and one model is finished off.
Interesting, okay, let us break this down:
ReplyDelete@Glen - if you continue to read the entire paragraph and do not selective read the first portion, you will see that it says "take the psychic test to activate the force weapons immediately after the first unsaved wounds are caused" (p.54 Codex: GK). To me that is pretty self explanatory.
ADDITIONALLY, the very first sentence says they are Force Weapons that follow the rules in the BRB.
@Lyracian: Once again if you read the rest of the paragraph on pg. 26 of the BRB it says: "Once you have determined the number of unsaved wounds suffered by a group of identical multiple-wound models, you MUST remove whole models as casualties where possible."
The problem is that Force Weapons are not automatically instant death weapons. They are only instant death weapons once they have been activated which occurs AFTER unsaved wounds are allocated for that INITIATIVE.
As I stated before, this is why it is so important for Grey Knights to have Force Weapons in different initiative orders; all Force Weapons are activated at once for the squad; ONCE they have been activated they ARE instant death weapons from that point on.
That is why I asked if their force weapons were different. At least that removes the cluster screw from my above post where you had to keep track of all those individual models. Like if you have a unit of mastercrafted weapons.
ReplyDeleteIs the Xenos Inquisator a "BrotherHood of Psyker" model since he sounds like an IC with this rule for his force weapon. If so then you would have killed them all. Otherwise it would still be just 1 extra wound net.
We can easily see her why 40K rules are bad. You have to know the main rules and all the exceptions in the 30 pages of rules in each of the 10+ codexes.
Remember that you only allocate the unsaved wounds to individual models after the saves for the group have been taken.
ReplyDelete1. Assign Wounds to Groups of identical models as per rules.
2. Roll saves for group.
3. Allocate unsaved wounds to individual models in the group according to the rules for single and multi wound models.
With the force weapons you just jump in between steps 2 and 3 with step
2.5 Roll Force Weapon Test and convert proper number of wounds to instant death(1 or all depending on rule unknown to me).
The Inq does not have a force weapon.
ReplyDeleteI will post this over on Dakka to see what they think. But if what Magilla says is correct then the Demonhammer should have killed 2 models.
I guess I am confused. I thought the Purifiers missed with the halberds or did you not list that you have multiple types of weapons. Once again I guess I should not argue points on codexes I do not have.
ReplyDeleteThe Demonhammer should have killed two models.
ReplyDeletePersonally, that is why I think any GK squad should have a combination of the three weapons.
I6, I4, I1. The I6 will get you the early kills most of the time; however, against multi-wound models that are the same then you need to get that early activation.
Magilla: I still think that this is not how the weapons are supposed to work. It makes them really stupid if you have to wait until the wound is assigned to an individual model as opposed to the unsaved wounds on the group before choosing the individual model in the identical model group.
ReplyDeleteMagilla's way would make them work very poorly against nid units since most of the models are the same but great verses the wound optimized Nob bikers.
ReplyDeleteI was wrong.
ReplyDeleteI spent this morning going through the rulebook and GK codex, and...
I think I might have sorted it out myself per pages 25, 26, and 50 of the BRB and page 54 of Codex Grey Knights.
Single Wound Models:
1. Roll to hit
2. Roll to wound
3. Allocate wounds
4. Remove unsaved wounds
Multiple Wound Models against normal weapons or force weapons that fail to activate.
1. Roll To Hit
2. Roll to Wound
3. Allocate Wounds
4. Determine the number of unsaved wounds
5. Remove whole models as casualties when possible.
Multiple Wound Models against Force Weapons which successfully activates
1. Roll To Hit
2. Roll to Wound
3. Allocate Wounds
4. Determine the number of unsaved wounds
5. Force Weapon Activates successfully
6. Individual models are removed per then instant death rules.
Goodness - what a chore to figure out that murky water.
Thanks for bringing this one up Blackmoor, it was a good one.
ReplyDelete@Magilla Gurilla,
ReplyDeleteI just logged back in to post a reply to you but I see you have figured it out. well done. :o)
Now we can all get on with killing TWC with Knights.