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Abuse puppy said this:
>Grey Knights do everything that the Space Wolves do only better.
Grey Knights are worse against hordes (except Purifiers.) Grey Knights can't bring as many bodies, and are thus less resilient. Grey Knights have worse fire support. Grey Knights have minimal access to Meltaguns. Grey Knights don't have the same kind of fast, strong assault units. Grey Knights don't have backfield disruption in the vein of Wolf Scouts. Grey Knights do not get Land Speeders or anything even vaguely like them. Grey Knights don't get the same cheap utility HQs that SW have.
Grey Knights are not just "better SW." Both of them are midfield shooting/assault hybrid armies, but GK uses torrent shooting and elite models, whereas SW uses torrent melee and backfield support shooting.
Let's break it down.
Grey Knights are worse against hordes (except Purifiers.)
Against hordes Grey Knight builds do very well with their shooting. Grey Knight Strike squads can shoot to full effect up to 24" and Grey Knights can crank their stormbolters up to strength 5. Paladins shooting is devastating to hordes, and then they can beat them down in assault. The fact that all of their weapons are all assault means they can move back and keep on firing. The last point is that we just do not see that many horde armies out there anymore. It is possible that the Coteaz henchman build might have some troubles with Hordes and that is about it.
Grey Knights can't bring as many bodies, and are thus less resilient
Paladins are more resiliant than anything that the Space Wolves can put down. In fact, Space Wolves have no good answers for them. What Grey Knights do lack in quantity they make up for in quality.
Grey Knights have worse fire support.
Autocannon Dreads with psybolt ammo are equal to 5 missile launcher long fangs. They are both strength 8, the trade off is that the dreads hit better, but the long fangs are AP3. As far as durability goes, it is hard to say which one is better. The Grey Knight player also can take 6 dreads and Long Fangs are limited to 3. Also dreadnaughts can move and shoot and that is a huge advantage.
Grey Knights have minimal access to Meltaguns.
The Henchman build can take a ton of cheap melta guns. Other Grey Knights builds are limited in their number of Melta Guns, but to make up for this they have rending psycannons that can take down AV14 vehicles at range. Space Wolves struggle to kill AV14 outside of 6".
Grey Knights don't have the same kind of fast, strong assault units
Interceptors can fill this role in a lot of cases. If you are talking about Thunderwolf Cavalry then you are right, but Dark Eldar can pick them apart, and Paladins can shoot them off of the table and then beat them in assault. Also if you are looking for a fast moving assault unit you can load up a Stormraven with paladins or purifiers and then get a 3+ cover save with shrouding and you get get where you need to go.
Grey Knights don't have backfield disruption in the vein of Wolf Scouts.
I take it then that you have never seen an outflanking Interceptor squad?
Grey Knights do not get Land Speeders or anything even vaguely like them
Well, I can say that Space Wolves do not have access to Stormravens or anything like them. What do land speeders add? Typhoons with a moving and shooting missile launcher? Dreadnaughts can do that. I have not seen any other land speeders in a competitive list in a while so I do not know what their vital role is other than giving away free kill points.
Grey Knights don't get the same cheap utility HQs that SW have.
Rune Preist=Librarian, Wolf Lord=Grand Master (Never seen someone use a WGBL or Wolf Priest)
Space Wolves can take 2 more of them than the Grey Knights can but they have to pay the price for them. That is why most Space Wolf armies run around with only 1 or 2 HQs (most of the time a killy lord+rune priest for psychic defense). A big weakness to multi-HQs is that there are so many Grey Knight players and you can only make one of them eternal warrior to stop being force weaponed to death. And in a side note a head to head match up Draigo will rofflestomp(sp) Logan
I think you hit the nail on the head. The funny thing is all the stuff that GK's are better at are the thing people used to accuse SW of being broken. Does that mean GKs are the most broken book of 5th ed?
ReplyDeleteGK also have access to outflanking Dreadknights if you want some backfield disruption.
ReplyDeleteMy experience tells me that the psyfleman is hands better than a squad of Long Fangs. AP3 is not really a big deal as the missiles are primarily targeting armor. It is funny when Draigo makes a FNP save versus a missile.
That is funny. I never thought about Draigo getting a FNP save from a Missile before, but you are right.
ReplyDeleteIt's awesome when it happens bro . Another kick in the shnards to missile spam.
ReplyDeleteI will say that based upon my experience with GK that SW are probably the toughest matchup when IG next. Thunderwolves lead by a Bearlord is still very nasty. It's even worse when there are two of them. The key to winning is keeping the Rune Priest far enough away that he can't block your Librarian with the old rune staff. S10 daemonhammers can make Thunderwolves go away real quick.
>vs Hordes
ReplyDeleteGK shooting vs hordes is superior in some respects, but Long Fangs go a ways towards making up for this and GH are infinitely better on the charge against them. I suppose you could argue it either way, but I've always been inclined to see them as less effective in this respect.
>resilience, re: Paladins
Paladins are not the whole of the GK codex, and Draigowing lists suffer from problems of their own. SW has plenty of good solutions to Paladins in LasPlas, cheap Missiles, and abundant scoring units with good mobility. Shooting them to death is not the only, nor really even the best, way of dealing with Paladins.
>fire support
Six LF with five Missiles is 140pts; a Psyfleman is 135. The LF are as accurate, have a higher upside (you can hit with all five shots), have AP3 (relevant against Marines, MCs, etc), can shoot Frag against softer targets, are harder to tie up in combat, and can split fire. (The Psyfleman has advantages, too, but weighed in the balance LF often look better.) SW also has more additional sources of cheap fire support (LasPlas, Riflemen, Speeders) than GK do.
>henchmen meltaguns
As much as they gain Meltaguns, they lose Psycannons, and unlike SW Melta, GK Melta that disembarks to shoot something is dead pretty much instantaneously. It's cheap, but you get what you pay for.
>assault units
I was mainly talking about TWC and TW Wolf Lords, yes; certainly, these units have weaknesses, but the same can be said of Paladins and every other unit. The point stands: SW's assault units have longer reach than GK's by a long shot. (Interceptors aren't the same thing at all; they don't hit as hard, they aren't as resilient, etc.)
>disruption
While Interceptors can provide some of this, they cost FAR more that Scouts do and tend to be less effective as a pure disruption asset- Scouts can tie up a Dread or Dev team, Melta a tank, etc, with no chance for the enemy to respond; Interceptors are more vulnerable to being stopped and more expensive.
>Speeders
Speeders add mobile Melta that can DS in to wreck something; they add duality by bringing a Heavy Flamer; they add cheap vehicle saturation; they add backfield shooting at 36"/48" range; they add a cheap option to a slot that otherwise might not get used. You said GK can do anything SW can do better; I'm giving you things they can't. An SW list can fill all its slots with vehicles; GK cannot ever really expect to do this.
>HQs
A Rune Priest costs 100pts, give or take. A GK Librarian costs more on the order of 200, depending on powers and gear. Many lists simply don't want to invest that many points into an HQ, especially at smaller point values; GK can, of course, just go with a budget Inquisitor, but at that point you're largely just throwing those points away, as (unlike the Rune Priest) he doesn't really do anything.
Some SW builds do struggle to fight GK, but more often than not it's because the army is bad, not because GK are broken. Loganwing, of course, has some real problems with them, but GK are the elitest of the elite- it's no surprise they trump other elite armies.
Much of what you said can be easily refuted. For instance:
ReplyDeleteGrey Hunters are not superior in melee compared to Purifiers or GKT.
Currently there is no effective way to deal with Paladins except keep them far away.
Psyflemen are better than Long Fangs for the reasons given by Allan.
If you want disruption as an element in your army it's easy to do - Grand Strategy to outflank units, Mordrak, Dreadknights, assassins, etc.
Allan has already pointed out why the lack of meltas is not an issue for a properly designed GK army and like he said if you must have its available.
Listing the exclusion of landspeeders... Fail.
Grey Hunters are not superior in melee compared to Purifiers or GKT.
ReplyDelete-what about point wise? purifier units tend to run on average 30 ppm, thats 2 gh.
Currently there is no effective way to deal with Paladins except keep them far away.
-This is true, and las plas spam can melt a paladin star fairly quickly.
Psyflemen are better than Long Fangs for the reasons given by Allan.
-disagree, allan failed to mention that long fangs dont die to a single missile, lascannon, or melta shot. I think the units are pretty evenly matched
If you want disruption as an element in your army it's easy to do - Grand Strategy to outflank units, Mordrak, Dreadknights, assassins, etc.
-All of which are significantly more expensive than scouts, and require an also expensive grand master to work, as well as having the list built around it. Outflanking interceptors are nice, but what if you want more scoring units, you have to make a trade. Scouts you can take 1 or 2 5 man melta squads for cheap.
Allan has already pointed out why the lack of meltas is not an issue for a properly designed GK army and like he said if you must have its available.
-I agree for the most part here, melta is not required with the kind of torrent fire gk can put out.
Hilariously poor analysis.
ReplyDeleteHere, let me point out a few obvious things.
Paladins cost trillions of points, and are always easier to kill than alternative units for the points.
You can't have meltas and knights, because meltasquads eat up troops, and require Coteaz. If yoy run henchmen squads, then you won't have actual room for all that many knights.
Why is this even on here? You know better, don't you? At least I though you did.
>Grey Hunters are not superior in melee compared to Purifiers or GKT.
ReplyDeleteI... didn't say they were. GKT are drastically more expensive (triple the cost), so one wouldn't expect them to be; Purifiers are not troops and are almost twice the price- comparing them is like comparing GH to a Dreadnought.
>If you want disruption as an element in your army it's easy to do - Grand Strategy to outflank units
Outflanking is drastically worse than OBEL and doesn't even begin to compare. Coming in from the long board edge vs short is a pretty big difference, not to mention the price (Wolf Scouts are 85pts, any disruption element GK fields costs them 125+pts and requires a Grandmaster.)
>Listing the exclusion of landspeeders... Fail.
Nice argument there. Can you add "epic" to that? Maybe get something in there about how you used to be an adventurer? Please, don't go out of your way to use coherent arguments on my behalf, I just want to hear some more internet catchphrases.
>Currently there is no effective way to deal with Paladins except keep them far away.
I wrote an entire article on how to deal with Paladins. It's really not that hard and little different from beating Tyrantstar, Nob Bikerz, etc, etc.
>melta is not required
It isn't required, but it is a disadvantage.
There is a 2k list on Paul Murphy's blog that has Draigo-Paladin deathstar-Coteaz-henchmen spam with some Purifiers thrown into the mix...
ReplyDeleteembracingtheblackrage.blogspot.com
So what if Purifiers cost more than Grey Hunters. Everybody knows GW undercosted GH and LF so you can still have enough points for a Bearlord-Wolfstar. Paladins as a troop are more expensive than most any other. Going by points per model is an invalid attempt to say GH are better. FAIL.
You can field Purifiers as a troop choice.
ReplyDeleteHINT - It's commonly referred to as Crowe tax.
:-)
Las-plas spam has been proven ineffective to Draigo-Paladin deathstar. The Libby is casting the 3++ cover and Draigo takes the first wound on his stormshield. Plasma is ineffective because of hte complex wound allocation shennigans.
ReplyDeleteWe have already pointed out GK have access to melta. I think you are trolling.
ReplyDeleteHave we not looked at how the great Paladin bomb at Nova got beat by a bunch of grey hunters and Njal? I mean no offense but they are slow. I disagree that dreads are better than longfangs. The split fire alone puts them on top. TWC are still viable against most grey knight builds. And if you want to pay heavy points for HQ's Njal bones Grey Knight Psychic powers like they are nothing!
ReplyDeleteNow I play both very competitively and believe the Grey Knights are stronger overall because of the terminator troops and paladin's, but Space Wolves in my eyes are a close second.
So you think one off game determines which army is better?
ReplyDeleteSplit Fire is okay but who is the first to die... invariably its the pack leader. I think Fortitude is better than Split Fire plus teh dread provides the enhanced aegis which is extremely helpful.
I might disagree with you on the pack leader. I sometimes kill off a missile depending on the situation.
DeleteWell it was actually 2 games, and I did say there were stronger overall but Space Wolves do come a close second.
First off, I think the top armies are IG, Grey Knights and Space Wolves. There is no doubt that SWs are good, the argument is that GKs are just better.
ReplyDeleteAs far as Long Fangs vs. Dreads goes, I think they are about even. They both have their pros and cons, one can move and shoot, one can split fire, one can be killed by a single shot, one can be killed by low strength weapons, etc.
They had the UK Masters tournament last week which has the top 16 players in the UK and they had 0 Space Wolf players and 5 Grey Knight players. That should tell you something.
Yes indeed Spag you did say you rate GK a bit higher than SW.
ReplyDelete: )
I did. What I am now trying to do is build my list to beat grey knights with my space wolves. It is funny because I play both. I wish Njal wasn't so expensive because I believe he is the key! I am trying a different approach than I did at Nova. I might play my new list at Adepticon. Not sure yet. I really want to win, but need to test my new theory vs more grey knight players.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI love the Space Wolves. Was my first army back in 2nd Ed. But I also currently play Grey Knights as well. GK will win a matchup vs Wolves probably 60% of the time from my experience. Have beaten GK with a TWC list and with just horde Blood Claws and Grey Hunters with LFs. If your Rune Priest can shut down the right powers at the right time you can win if he fails you will most likely lose.
ReplyDeleteAnd as for the Dread vs LFs I honestly can't pick one as better than the other both are very solid support fire.
how do space wolves kill paladins.....
ReplyDeletehees a list of some options:
240 pts, a land speeder squadron with 6 multimeltas, average 3 dead paladins a turn.
2x vindicator, 230 pts, need say more.
10 wolf guard with combi-meltas in drop pod, 265pts, average 4-5 paladins
greyknights loose to my wolves every time, and i play tournament champions weekly grey knight players think they are better but they really have great weaknesses, versatility being the biggest.
there is only 1 unit in the grey knight codex my space wolves get mauled by...... deathcult assassins in a landraider redeemer or stormraven.
they close to fast and wipe out most units to a man. if anyone knows how to counter them let me know, then i'll never loose to grey knights ever.
if you people want to learn how to play at an elite level here's the trick..... low point games, our club throws a mini tournament every friday, 12 weeks long 3 games starts at 750, adds 50pts every 2 weeks, when you play small games you learn how to make the most of anything, try taking out a draigo wing with only 750pts of wolves, you learn how to beat paladins, try taking on 20 power armoured greyknights, a psifle dread and an inquisitor with deathcults in a storm raven, thats hard.
40k is most unbalanced at sub 1000pts, if you can learn how to exploit your wolves at this point level, you can make a tough list for any points..... if you can make a 750pt list thats unbeatable, how can it be beaten when you take 2 of the same list at 1500pts?
When i play my grey knights, there are only 2 armies i fear, wolves and dark eldar, (dark eldar are the anti-knights) dark eldar with darklance spam all in boats, to many targets, my 2 psyfle dreads usually die in the first 2 turns and my knights cant split fire there psycannons like long fangs so the boats drive around and shoot me too pieces. when you play a dark eldar darklance list with knights you realise that low number of units + no long range weapons= no more knights against any transport heavy list......
as for psifle dreads.....scouts = psifle dread bane!
lol i would rape all you space wolfs ad you guys will die of lack of hygiene!!!!!!!!!!!! Dogs. i will purely smash you to bits
ReplyDelete